BH Balanced Hackmons

apologies for the double post, but wanted to announce something regarding lumina crash / mmx. we're considering a vote and will likely have some votes by monday as to not disrupt the next round of money tour, but one of the outcomes has a caveat:

provided that we vote ban on lumina crash, regarding tiering policy, we'd sort of be under the obligation to retest mmy - both crash and protean would have been axed, meaning arguably its most impactful tool and one of the best for brute-forcing stuff are absent. this fits with what we did just before pre-full dex ended with banning hadron and freeing miraidon, and with what multiple other OMs have done in individual cases. if mmy were to be freed and re-banned (which is an option), the likelihood is that we take tiering action on mmx, either by quickban or suspect - we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

what would be your thoughts on the above? the status quo is that mmy gets freed (it won't end up being a suspect off the banlist should crash get banned given the uncertainty with dlc2), so if you don't want that to happen, speak up about it.
I earnestly support unbanning mmy after an also important crash ban, I even made a team for it https://pokepast.es/117e21b8bef684a0 . Btw any action on salt cure planned?
 
I see a severe lack of balance samples, which is funny because it’s supposed to be the most consistent playstyle right now. So here’s a solid balance sample submission to start off.

importable

Team name: Noxious Skewers - Toxic Spikes Eternatus + Choice Specs MDiancie

Synopsis:

With Mortal Spin staying legal and forcing a Cloak on everyone and their mothers, TSpikes can really wreck stuff on most cores not carrying a Poison or Steel type, or a MG user, and Mold Breaker on Eternatus means that it's almost always going up, unless if they're running AShield Bounce, in which case they're running an AShield Bounce mon.
Spam Knock Off with Ghostceus early game, pivot and scout with Imposter, all the regular balance stuff.
With the TSpikes up, you chip down regular switchins to Eternatus, MDiancie, Ghostceus and Miraidon heavily, forcing them to burn through recovery quickly. When they get heavily chipped, or at the least burn through all their recovery, start playing aggresively. Stone Axe on a predicted Scales Ho-Oh (or if you get it wrong, Ho-Oh's probably been knocked by now), start setting Eternatus up - yeah you get the point.
FC Mirai and Ghostceus can decently check most physical attackers, and Scales MPert is pretty cope but it does it's job decently.

Weaknesses:

-MSceptile instantly 6-0s. There's literally nothing you can do about this - maybe you can change MPert for Ice Scales Ho-Oh but then Imposter has the burden of improofing 2 mons at once, one of them can just pivot out or hit you with a physical move and set up Rocks. Or you can epically win the speed tie with Imposter and hope they don't go into their improof for whatever reason.

- Life Orb MDiancie Boomburst cleanly 3HKOs MPert. PBlades always OHKOs back though (barring +def which is lol), so hope they get cocky and then skillfully hit the PBlades.

- There's no conventional pivoting apart from Teleport from Imposter and Volt Switch from MDiancie. You gotta leverage natural type resistances/immunities or your defensive mons more than you'd normally do from a balance team.

Effectiveness: (no way me actually doing good with anything??) Went 19-0 (1434) on ladder with relative ease, and the most important part is that I beat both Cirno HO and my own HO!!!!!!!!
 
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Kin+ak (✧∇✧)

I COULD BE BANNED!
I love FEAR diglett-a as it doesnt take tox nor sandstorm (occasionally) and fear can Be very nice to take down unprepared teams (like a Good old +4 atk mmewtwox cc or any defensive mon. Any steel Type is eligible, But diglett has particularly low hp. Dialga-O is also strong, But you Then can't use it in any Other way. Give the diglett knock off to have utility agaisnt choses that believe in free switchin, But toxic is éligible as well. Min speed impostor chansey With only self destruct is also p strong as it forces An opponent imposter to switch out. Still, whirlwind or haze impostor chansey are more meta (I guess?) So i don't sAY it's the ultimate set.
 

Tea Guzzler

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Lumina Crash is quickbanned from BH!
//////////Tea GuzzleraugustakiraChessking345TTTech
Lumina CrashBanBanDo Not BanBan
Surprising basically nobody, given the ~78% of requests in the survey supporting action, this move doesn't really lead to healthy gameplay. Playing against a Lumina Crash user almost always falls to "Do you have Covert Cloak or are Yveltal? If not, hope you enjoy sufferring" thanks to the -2 drop allowing for basically any special coverage to punch even through Ice Scales on occasion. MMX is obviously the main abuser in the current meta, but MMY was banned in large part due to it, and other miscallaneous Pokemon like Ultra Necrozma can force functionally the same Cloak game even if they are worse Pokemon overall.

:mewtwo-mega-y: So where does MMY fall into all of this? Simple answer is 2 reasons, being the current tournament environment and a discussion we had with OM leaders. With the money tour entering its final stages and OMWC soon entering playoffs (especially since this was waiting on Money Tour Round 9 going up, which wasn't until midnight on Monday), re-introducing MMY and likely having no conclusive action before these get impacted was something we spoke about and ended up being averse to. In addition, we had word from OM leaders that freeing MMY wasn't necessary for a Crash ban to go through, as Crash was a big factor in its ban but not the factor. MMY will likely be overbearing come DLC2 and the factors that are essentially guaranteed to return (stuff like Bolt Strike, Blue Flare, Photon Geyser, etc), and we still don't have a date for when that's hitting, so a retest is possible but we can't really put a probability on it.

Tagging Kris to implement.
 
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Lumina Crash is quickbanned from BH!
//////////Tea GuzzleraugustakiraChessking345TTTech
Lumina CrashBanBanDo Not BanBan
Surprising basically nobody, given the ~78% of requests in the survey supporting action, this move doesn't really lead to healthy gameplay. Playing against a Lumina Crash user almost always falls to "Do you have Covert Cloak or are Yveltal? If not, hope you enjoy sufferring" thanks to the -2 drop allowing for basically any special coverage to punch even through Ice Scales on occasion. MMX is obviously the main abuser in the current meta, but MMY was banned in large part due to it, and other miscallaneous Pokemon like Ultra Necrozma can force functionally the same Cloak game even if they are worse Pokemon overall.

:mewtwo-mega-y: So where does MMY fall into all of this? Simple answer is 2 reasons, being the current tournament environment and a discussion we had with OM leaders. With the money tour entering its final stages and OMWC soon entering playoffs (especially since this was waiting on Money Tour Round 9 going up, which wasn't until midnight on Monday), re-introducing MMY and likely having no conclusive action before these get impacted was something we spoke about and ended up being averse to. In addition, we had word from OM leaders that freeing MMY wasn't necessary for a Crash ban to go through, as Crash was a big factor in its ban but not the factor. MMY will likely be overbearing come DLC2 and the factors that are essentially guaranteed to return (stuff like Bolt Strike, Blue Flare, Photon Geyser, etc), and we still don't have a date for when that's hitting, so a retest is possible but we can't really put a probability on it.

Tagging Kris to implement.
RIP Psychic types, Now we'll really see poison dominate this tier, which sounds quite (un)fun. That being said, MMX should still work without Lumina crash because it's still our best fighting type, but should be much more linear as a pokémon and no longer being a reliable answer to poison.

Also, Will you consider to take action on Protein/Liberal (or however they were called)? Those habilities were banned BECAUSE of psychic types abusing lumina crash interactions with pure psychic after all, most notably regular Deoxys and M-Alakazam (Also Deoxys-Attack but the 2 mentioned was WHY you banned it, because they were showing a Shed Tail effect).
 
RIP Psychic types, Now we'll really see poison dominate this tier, which sounds quite (un)fun. That being said, MMX should still work without Lumina crash because it's still our best fighting type, but should be much more linear as a pokémon and no longer being a reliable answer to poison.

Also, Will you consider to take action on Protein/Liberal (or however they were called)? Those habilities were banned BECAUSE of psychic types abusing lumina crash interactions with pure psychic after all, most notably regular Deoxys and M-Alakazam (Also Deoxys-Attack but the 2 mentioned was WHY you banned it, because they were showing a Shed Tail effect).
M alaka and the hopefully coming mmy still have the amazing psystrike at their disposal to target physically frail stuff and regenvest, also no lumina interactions were not the only reason protbero were banned, even mixed mons like mmx and non lumina deo were incredibly strong with no lumina interaction access, and there was the same problem of “if x gets banned replacements will arise” with it.
 

Tea Guzzler

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RIP Psychic types, Now we'll really see poison dominate this tier, which sounds quite (un)fun. That being said, MMX should still work without Lumina crash because it's still our best fighting type, but should be much more linear as a pokémon and no longer being a reliable answer to poison.

Also, Will you consider to take action on Protein/Liberal (or however they were called)? Those habilities were banned BECAUSE of psychic types abusing lumina crash interactions with pure psychic after all, most notably regular Deoxys and M-Alakazam (Also Deoxys-Attack but the 2 mentioned was WHY you banned it, because they were showing a Shed Tail effect).
We won't be freeing Protean/Libero. These weren't banned because of the Crash interaction, as Notagamer said, but rather that anything moderately fast with ~150 offenses (which is surprisingly a lot) can use it to pick up basically tier-wide 2HKOes that can only be navigated around by prediction. Crash tech on stuff like Deo-A did exist, and it helped ease predictions against annoying stuff like RegenVest POgre, but it was usually the most droppable slot for extra coverage like Glacial Lance, Headlong Rush, or U-turn (and as can be evidenced by MMX, having the Crash interaction was far from necessary to break these abilities). Crash wasn't a large enough part of Protean/Libero, nor does its departure fundementally change the issue with these abilities, so they won't be freed.
 
We won't be freeing Protean/Libero. These weren't banned because of the Crash interaction, as Notagamer said, but rather that anything moderately fast with ~150 offenses (which is surprisingly a lot) can use it to pick up basically tier-wide 2HKOes that can only be navigated around by prediction. Crash tech on stuff like Deo-A did exist, and it helped ease predictions against annoying stuff like RegenVest POgre, but it was usually the most droppable slot for extra coverage like Glacial Lance, Headlong Rush, or U-turn (and as can be evidenced by MMX, having the Crash interaction was far from necessary to break these abilities). Crash wasn't a large enough part of Protean/Libero, nor does its departure fundementally change the issue with these abilities, so they won't be freed.
... It seems you're banning it not due to power, but due to unhealthy game patterns. I can totally buy it. Also, you could have said "This kind of patterns were also present in Gen 8 BH btw". But hey, we all know tera is kinda like protein and got banned due to how abusable it was, so I see the logic here.
 
I remember playing Balanced hackmons in late Gen V and Gen VI.
My team Consisted of a Sturdy Shedinja, a Simple Shell Smash Slaking/Regigigas, a Contrary Mega-Mewtwo Y, an Imposter blissey, a Mega Salamance and an Illusion ghostplate Mega Gengar. Now 5 of those are illegal, not just due to their abilites, but due to the pokemon them selves being banned.

:blobsad:

I miss the earlier days.
 
Can we ban salt cure already pretty please? There’s literally no reason to preserve it unlike mortal spin, doesn’t have the amazing take heart to deal with it, no immunities either, the 25% to steel and water means unlike other passive damage the big regenvest take a lot from it. It’s just such a dumb move.
 
I remember playing Balanced hackmons in late Gen V and Gen VI.
My team Consisted of a Sturdy Shedinja, a Simple Shell Smash Slaking/Regigigas, a Contrary Mega-Mewtwo Y, an Imposter blissey, a Mega Salamance and an Illusion ghostplate Mega Gengar. Now 5 of those are illegal, not just due to their abilites, but due to the pokemon them selves being banned.

:blobsad:

I miss the earlier days.
I wonder if Slaking would be an issue in today's meta, now that Fur coat Arceus-Ghost is a common set, MMX being so popular and no tera to avoid its fighting weakness in a pinch. I'd argue most teams have enough tools to solve the Slaking issue due to middling 100 speed, middling special bulk and middling typing on defense and offense, specially considering MMX is not one despite being stronger, much faster, can go mix without too many issues (Or at least used to) and has better typing on offense.

The other ones bar Regigigas though? Keep dreaming.
 
I wonder if Slaking would be an issue in today's meta, now that Fur coat Arceus-Ghost is a common set, MMX being so popular and no tera to avoid its fighting weakness in a pinch. I'd argue most teams have enough tools to solve the Slaking issue due to middling 100 speed, middling special bulk and middling typing on defense and offense, specially considering MMX is not one despite being stronger, much faster, can go mix without too many issues (Or at least used to) and has better typing on offense.

The other ones bar Regigigas though? Keep dreaming.
Middling 100 speed when tidy up, mmx when +1 facade, arc ghost when wicked beats its ass even through sap.
 
Middling 100 speed when tidy up
  • You could say this about EVERY physical setup sweeper, like how Ho-Oh outspeeds everything with +1. That speed does indeed limits some entry points, specially against special wallbreakers. Or is simple arceus Ghost suddenly a problem?
252 SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Diancie Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slaking: 495-583 (98.2 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slaking in Psychic Terrain: 437-515 (86.7 - 102.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slaking: 580-686 (115 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slaking: 450-529 (89.2 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Arceus-Ghost Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slaking: 510-600 (101.1 - 119%) -- guaranteed 70% chance of OHKO

What i'm saying is that initial speed matters, and Slaking can easily struggle to sweep because every team has an arceus with 120 base speed, alongside Diancie-Mega, MMX, Miraidon, Kartana, Eternatus, Zacian and Deoxys-Attack being prominent.

Mmx when +1 facade
  • My point of MMX was less about it being able to switch into and more about, again, how 100 speed is unimpressive for this tier and how despite MMX being much better in a lots of elements in offense, it wasn't considered banworthy per se. Also, Desolated Land V-Create Ho-Oh.
252+ Atk Guts Slaking Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Arceus-Poison: 141-166 (31.7 - 37.3%) -- 87.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Ho-Oh V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Arceus-Poison in Harsh Sunshine: 156-184 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

arc ghost when wicked beats its ass even through sap.
  • Yeah, you have a point there... if I wasn't good a Maths. Slaking kinda fails to 2HKO Arceus-Ghost with that supereffective move, and that huge attack means it will heal arceus to full easily on first usage.

252+ Atk Guts Slaking Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Arceus-Ghost on a critical hit: 152-180 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Considering Wicked blow only has 8 PP and Arceus can outheal up until it's -4 and even delay a Strenght sap at 0 and -1 even with rocks up...


I'll buy you this one though: Slaking is an imposter-proof physical attacker, meaning it's quite difficult to deal with if you're not careful... but so is Kartana and Banded Sword of ruin MMX. Being powerful at breaking walls isn't enough to be broken or even unhealthy. Slaking got banned mainly due to being too good with Tera, an element who is no longer here, and they also added a lot of legendaries to offer it a better answer.

PS:
1) How do you publish those kind of sets. I want to help the tier with that, most notably offensive Miraidon (Either draco plate or specs), but also stuff like Blissey (Don't pretend a consistent 15-20% usage in top ladder is unviable, you professional gaslighters), fur Coat Ho-Oh, the many Eternatus sets depending on hability, Celesteela, Registeel and Dragapult.
2) GODDAHMIT CHESSKING. Can you take me seriously for once?!
 
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cityscapes

Take care of yourself.
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252 SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Diancie Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slaking: 495-583 (98.2 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slaking in Psychic Terrain: 437-515 (86.7 - 102.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slaking: 580-686 (115 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slaking: 450-529 (89.2 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Arceus-Ghost Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slaking: 510-600 (101.1 - 119%) -- guaranteed 70% chance of OHKO
all of these mons (save for ghostceus who obv must be at +2) are extremely rigid 0 bulk offensive guys who you always see on depressing teams that have 2 of them and 4 passive motherfuckers that are all setup bait for monke. teams that use these pokemon will end up being very weak to slaking in practice. if you go for a more fluid structure that aims to preserve momentum rather than constantly getting forced out with 0 bulk choiced guys, you will instead do 50-60% to slaking best-case and allow it opportunities to take names.
  • Yeah, you have a point there... if I wasn't good a Maths. Slaking kinda fails to 2HKO Arceus-Ghost with that supereffective move, and that huge attack means it will heal arceus to full easily on first usage.

252+ Atk Guts Slaking Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Arceus-Ghost on a critical hit: 152-180 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Considering Wicked blow only has 8 PP and Arceus can outheal up until it's -4 and even delay a Strenght sap at 0 and -1 even with rocks up...
fc ghostceus is probably the most sound slaking check in the game but still loses to any sap blocking which slaking teams should always be running. sap is the 1 way to beat slaking ever
PS:
1) How do you publish those kind of sets. I want to help the tier with that, most notably offensive Miraidon (Either draco plate or specs), but also stuff like Blissey (Don't pretend a consistent 15-20% usage in top ladder is unviable, you professional gaslighters), fur Coat Ho-Oh, the many Eternatus sets depending on hability, Celesteela, Registeel and Dragapult.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/om-analyses.763/ the calc draws from these, make a post in reservation thread. if this is too much work, you can also put together a setpedia which is just the sets that you can directly import into the calc.

got some sample submissions

:arceus-ground::giratina::volcanion::diancie-mega::celesteela::chansey:
Team name: Galaxies on Earth
Synopsis: Speed Boost Celesteela classical balance
Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/9e15b5d3981f22b5
Usage tips: Scout sets with Imposter and play patiently in most cases. Preserve Celesteela's Leftovers. Make progress by stacking hazards and removing boots with Volcanion. Against choiced attackers, go to Celesteela on the pivot move so you can protect to scout their attack. Celesteela is imposter-proofed by Volcanion; Diancie by Arceus-Ground; Arceus by Celesteela. Arceus is the main answer to Take Heart stuff and No Retreat Ghostceus.
Weaknesses: If they can block all your Mortal Spin users the game will be a bit annoying. Make sure to preserve your Heavy-Duty Boots and Celesteela's Leftovers in this matchup, as you will have to play slowly. Team is very solid against most things but if you play imprecisely you will suffer for it.
Effectiveness: Peaked ladder, won every tour game so far

:miraidon::mewtwo-mega-x::slowbro-mega::arceus-ghost::chansey::zacian-crowned:
Team name: Snowland (Second Formation)
Synopsis: Aurora Veil + Chilly Reception heavy offense
Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/0f47d69a3da16005
Usage tips: Aim for a strong initiative in the first few turns by guessing lead correct or U-turning into your good mons. Unlike more formulaic offense teams, you will not always want to prioritize Veil (though it is very strong so I would recommend going for it in most cases). Mirai is your guy that has no counters, MMX/Arceus/Zacian clean up late game and limit opposing offense. Make sure to not let them knock your Draco Plate. In most cases you'll want to Healing Wish early with Chansey to heal up a weakened wincon, and consider Lunar Dance from MMX later on.
Weaknesses: Struggles a little bit with Court Change and Spooky Plate Imposter, and a lot with Prank Encore and Toxic Spikes. Team is very matchup-based: you have a pretty easy time in good matchups, but struggle to find play in bad ones, such as against a specific defensive combination that limits Miraidon.
Effectiveness: Got some good wins, brought successfully to money tour, consistency isn't the best but the team is fun and very customizable.

:ursaluna::drifloon::chansey::flutter mane::lugia::arceus-water:
Team name: But Who Was Phone
Synopsis: MG Ursaluna dubious balance
Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/c15417412f53caae
Usage tips: Get kills with Freddy and limit opposing initiative with double Imposter + Waterceus. Clean out offense with Normalize Flutter Mane. Your main Knock Off absorbers are Drifloon, Arceus, and Lugia, in that order. Drifloon imposter-proofs Ursaluna. Flutter Mane owns Judgment/Revelation Dance users with Take Heart but takes like 85 from Diancie Extreme Speed so keep it away from that. The two main uses of Lugia's Lunar Dance are to restore Shift Gear PP on Ursaluna after trading them all off against a Strength Sap user, and to heal up Flutter Mane late-game so it can get by its counters.
Weaknesses: Lots of duties fall on Arceus so if it gets poisoned or something then things can get bad. Magic Bounce Audino makes you suffer. Ursaluna can get walled out by several Sap spammers, and by Eviolite Imposter if it loses its Life Orb. You kinda die to the corny Clear Amulet Simple Victory Dance stuff due to its resilience against Imposter though I never ran into it. (Slow Waterceus can be considered with the idea of outslowing +0 Victory Dance with Haze, though it's still a temporary counter and I really prefer having the speed.) Pretty much all matchups will be at least playable.
Effectiveness: Third place on ladder @ 67-10 (could probably get higher if I kept going), was confident bringing this to money tour but opponent didn't show up
 

Tea Guzzler

forever searching for a 10p freddo
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Can we ban salt cure already pretty please? There’s literally no reason to preserve it unlike mortal spin, doesn’t have the amazing take heart to deal with it, no immunities either, the 25% to steel and water means unlike other passive damage the big regenvest take a lot from it. It’s just such a dumb move.
We're sort of putting the backburners on in regards to tiering thanks to the DLC release date, so major metagame shifts aren't likely to happen, but Salt Cure is something we're still trying to navigate around without fucking over late stages of Money Tour / OMWC (which will be notably different with it gone).
  • You could say this about EVERY physical setup sweeper, like how Ho-Oh outspeeds everything with +1. That speed does indeed limits some entry points, specially against special wallbreakers. Or is simple arceus Ghost suddenly a problem?
252 SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Diancie Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slaking: 495-583 (98.2 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slaking in Psychic Terrain: 437-515 (86.7 - 102.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Slaking: 580-686 (115 - 136.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Miraidon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slaking: 450-529 (89.2 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Arceus-Ghost Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Slaking: 510-600 (101.1 - 119%) -- guaranteed 70% chance of OHKO

What i'm saying is that initial speed matters, and Slaking can easily struggle to sweep because every team has an arceus with 120 base speed, alongside Diancie-Mega, MMX, Miraidon, Kartana, Eternatus, Zacian and Deoxys-Attack being prominent.


  • My point of MMX was less about it being able to switch into and more about, again, how 100 speed is unimpressive for this tier and how despite MMX being much better in a lots of elements in offense, it wasn't considered banworthy per se. Also, Desolated Land V-Create Ho-Oh.
252+ Atk Guts Slaking Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Arceus-Poison: 141-166 (31.7 - 37.3%) -- 87.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Ho-Oh V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Arceus-Poison in Harsh Sunshine: 156-184 (35.1 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO



  • Yeah, you have a point there... if I wasn't good a Maths. Slaking kinda fails to 2HKO Arceus-Ghost with that supereffective move, and that huge attack means it will heal arceus to full easily on first usage.

252+ Atk Guts Slaking Wicked Blow vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Fur Coat Arceus-Ghost on a critical hit: 152-180 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Considering Wicked blow only has 8 PP and Arceus can outheal up until it's -4 and even delay a Strenght sap at 0 and -1 even with rocks up...


I'll buy you this one though: Slaking is an imposter-proof physical attacker, meaning it's quite difficult to deal with if you're not careful... but so is Kartana and Banded Sword of ruin MMX. Being powerful at breaking walls isn't enough to be broken or even unhealthy. Slaking got banned mainly due to being too good with Tera, an element who is no longer here, and they also added a lot of legendaries to offer it a better answer.
Slaking/Regigigas are't being freed, at least until we're at the position where we have basically nothing else to do tiering-wise. Tidy Up + Guts is simply too good because, barring the severely-middling Rock-types (which still don't eat 32 Facade PP all that well unless they're also Fur Coat), you're essentially forced into a Fur Coat Steel or Ghost in order to reasonably handle them, which opens up the fun game of "do they have Wicked Blow or V-create" - funnily enough here, a Well-Baked Steel-type like Zama-C wasn't good enough to beat Guts, as +1 Facade just straight up 2HKOes it. Not only was an attacker of this calibre not otherwise present in Pre-Full Dex, but Slaking also had an abnormally good Imposter matchup and shocking defensive utility thanks to 150/100 bulk, Tidy Up clearing hazards, and a Mortal Spin/Nuzzle immunity. In current meta, there's not really any reason to believe this would be any different, as Tera absolutely made them mental but was far from necessary for them to actually be broken (Tera did nothing for navigating Fur Coat resists for example; it merely made Fur Coat Groudon teams weep even harder at their mon selection), and the landscape of Slaking devouring defensive mons for breakfast but not easily setting up in front of special offense has only slightly changed; city hit the nail on the head there. Reliance on Strength Sap being higher than ever also doesn't bode well for freeing more stuff with which to bait sap.

(also note but we aren't freeing them via a guts, facade, or tidy up ban - the first 2 have been trialled on other normals like arceus, ursaluna, and meloetta-p/mega lopunny and have been thoroughly unimpressive, and the latter doesn't make sense as nothing is breaking it right now).
 
Sample sub that isn't semi-trolling Hyper Offense

:mewtwo-mega-x: :celesteela: :miraidon: :arceus-water: :chansey: :ting lu:

Team Name: Daytime Guest Stars
Team Decription: Straightforward Balance with SF MMX, MG Miraidon and Bounce Ting Lu

Strengths: MMX has very few checks, Miraidon is exellent into passive stall sets, Ting Lu is able to completely shut down many common defensive mons. You usually have a good way to make progress no matter what.
Weaknesses: Electric/Fairy coverage (notably TH Arc-Fairy), Regen Lunala (nearly impossible to get progress against), Dragon move Miraidon
Ting Lu's Improofing is shaky but hasn't been an issue in the games I've played.
Effectiveness: Beat Sevag in OMWC, peaked ladder from ~1600 to 1752 with this team, went 25-0 on an alt in low ladder so it's pretty resistant to cheese / random attackers.
 

Tea Guzzler

forever searching for a 10p freddo
is a Site Content Manageris a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
wanted to drop a sample submission

Team name: Earthshaker Balance
Synopsis: Teleport Balance ft. Choice Band Kyurem-B
Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/278902aa619539ab
Usage tips: Magic Bounce Ho-Oh stifles most Strength Sap users that Kyurem-B isn't instantly punching through, namely Arceus formes, with multiple Teleports to give Kyurem-B as much airtime as possible. Dialga-O has 1 lower Speed than Ho-Oh to guarantee a slower Teleport than Imposter users, and with Adamant Crystal, it fully Imposter-proofs Ho-Oh and provides a fairly easy Miraidon switch-in that can grab momentum off of it switching. Fleur/Gigaton MMX provides an option to pick off annoying mons like Arceus-Fairy and Miraidon, but Freezing Glare over Fleur is feasible here to completely lock off Arceus-Poison (and is Improofed with a Bouncer, so Imp can't safely switch in and tank).
Weaknesses: SNR Arceus-Ghost is the main problem, as nothing on this team has Haze and the Arceus set can't really handle it all that well, so the best resolution would likely to go with Ice Scales + Haze Arceus-Fairy; the main plan against it is to out-position and win faster, but something like Astral Barrage MMX can also help in this regard. Revelation Dance + Choice Specs Diancie is also quite annoying to deal with thanks to how fast Arceus gets worn down from it and with Ho-Oh non-functional, so out-positioning it is very much the best option against it, as the Arceus slot needs to be hazard removal and no other removal Arceus really works all that well. Opposing Mega Garchomp and Kyurem-B are in a similar boat, but they don't get a lot of safe switchin opportunities and MMX / Arceus can take one hit from full with Sap.
Effectiveness: Has consistently performed well in private games and on ladder.
 

tzaur

فلسطين حرة
is a Tiering Contributor
Not to beat a dead horse, but to add to Tea Guzzler and cityscapes's points, you do not want another addition to this meta that enables MMX and Kartana, two mons I already believe are borderline, when Diancie already does that, because that's exactly what Guts Slaking (Regigigas) does. Your FC Rock-type or Fire-immune Steel-type gets smacked by Kart Gigaton Hammer and MMX Fighting STABs, respectively. Fur Coat Ghostceus and Giratina(-O) eat Wicked Blows to the face by Mold Breaker MMX or Guts Slaking and get Sap blocked. They also generally do not enjoy coming in on Gigaton Hammer Kart whether it's SoR or Moldy especially if paired with a Sap blocker. Pretty much all FC mons used to check MMX and Kart take neutral damage from Facade which is still bad news even when Slaking is at +1 or +2 Attack; Recover easily gets worn down, so they're forced to click Sap to keep their head above water and god forbid the Slaking user is paired with non-Imposter blobs, a favorable Magic Bounce user, or some random Liquid Ooze mon--which they often would be.

Their checks do not really overlap, so you would ideally want to run double Fur Coat to at least somewhat cover MMX, Kart, and Slaking/Gigas. I'm already starting to see double FC structures pop up more, and the last thing I want right now is for it to be more strictly enforced.
 

LOrd Fernado

I COULD BE BANNED!
:sv/ho-oh::sv/arceus-poison::sv/steelix-mega::sv/mewtwo-mega-x::sv/diancie-mega::sv/chansey:
Team Name: Sunset Spam
Team Decription: Very standard balance featuring FC Ho-Oh.
Strengths: MDiancie doesn't have many switch-ins, FC Ho-Oh can deal with many threats like MMX and MDiancie and is a great improofer.
Weaknesses: Offensive core has ZERO defensive utility, team becomes weak to stuff like Palkia-O and MG Deo-A / MMX running Psychic. MSteelix doesn't have a clear improof. Arc-Ghost has a slightly shoddy mu.
 
Sample Submission

:deoxys-attack::diancie-mega::chansey::arceus-poison::yveltal::dialga-origin:
Team name: Classic Psy-Fai
Synopsis: Powerful Balance ft. PsySurge DeoA & Specs MDiancie
Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/05b5223f849763e6
Usage tips:
:deoxys-attack:: Expanding Force for breaking power and Volt Tackle to synergize with MDiancie. The other two moves depends. Remember to make sure you always OHKO Imposter. Improofed by Yveltal.
:diancie-mega:: You just click Boomburst and kill everything...... SpD EVs is such that you 2HKO Imposter, can go without. Improofed by Arceus-Poison.
:chansey:: It's Chansey. It improofs some and forces some to improof.
:arceus-poison:: Wall #1. Change Mortal Spin for Toxic if you like. Soft self-improofed or improofed by Chansey.
:yveltal:: Wall #2. It's both a Physical wall for all and a Special wall for Ghost-Types. Best improofed by Chansey.
:dialga-origin:: Anti-Setup utility. Give it no recovery to make sure Imposter never heals.
Weaknesses: Team is very consistent if u don't encounter a cteam. However sap-block teams can be an issue since the only recovery Move used is Strength Sap.
Effectiveness: Used it in 3 tour games and won all.
 
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Yo yo yo I was sitting in my home thinking about bh when I had a huge lightbulb moment
https://pokepast.es/454d01d30516aa3f
Double final gambit offense
:lunala:
Final gambit one, does what it does. Improofed by yv.
:eternatus:
Final gambit two, also does what it does. Improofed by chansey.
:chansey:
Very awesome, very official, very imposter.
:diancie-mega:
Decided cleaner after the two final gambits, e speed can revenge some stuff like mmx. Improofed by m lix
:steelix-mega:
Does regenvest stuff, improofs diancie.
:yveltal:
Checks snr ghost, improofed by Dian. Improofed by lunala.
 
Screen Shot 2023-11-14 at 1.51.05 PM.png


Team Name: Suppressive Depression

Synopsis: This is a stall team which is built with Cotton Guard. As everyone should know, some of the biggest nukes in the game are CB Moldy/SOR mons like MMX, Kart, Kyu-b, MChomp, etc. With Cotton Guard + Body Press, we can alleviate the need of switching out and risk dying to coverage and simply setup Cotton Guard, usually preventing any risk of OHKO. Then, Body Press takes advantage of the defense boost to deal respectable damage to the otherwise non-threatening mons. Of course special walls are needed to cover Cotton Guard's lack of special defense boost, so this team has Regen Giratina, Magic Guard Blissey and Ice Scales Arceus.

Pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/a8f5a4308b07b6a8


Guide:

Introduction

What sort of emotion does the picture above evoke to you? The hearts of men are capable of expressing innumerable facets of emotions. Sometimes fear of the unknown. Sometimes hope for a better future. Other times, excitement. Melancholy. Empathy. Anger. For me, there is one emotion which capture how I feel if I were to see the picture above. Sadness. Sadness that I will have to torture myself before an inevitable loss. Sadness that I'm not running the right coverage or a stall breaker. Sadness that I would have to 6-0 such a trash core because I am better. Sadness that my opponent thinks Giratina is a playable mon.

Pokemon & Role:
:Chansey: Big Imposter is omnipresent. Do not question its presence.

:Blissey: Walls Special Dragons and some Arceus. Sap blocks. Big damage with STAB Boomburst (don't calc, just believe).

:Audino-Mega: Walls physical dragons. Cotton Guard Press to delete insolent mons who stays in. Mortal Spin for SNR Ghost Arc.

:Giratina: Walls MMX, do Regen things. Free knock and rocks on your own Blissey/Miraidon for imposter. Force out setup sweepers with dtail.

:Miraidon: Best Kart check. Cotton Guard because we do not switch out against Kyurem and MChomp. We setup and 2hko them instead.

:Arceus-Poison: Reliable mortal spinner and Diancie check.

Weakness:
What does it mean... to be peerless under the heavens? To be without equal under the sun? To be invincible?
Screen Shot 2023-11-14 at 2.44.16 PM.png

(Idk the weakness, I've played 2 games with this team)

Effectiveness
I went 2-0 (100% Win rate) on ladder.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...89512688-rojoctapbifyrezoywtk2e7cwcisqkfpw?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...89527438-x41mp1vpkxft9s01qnkf53ixtthmifupw?p2

Conclusion
Very good team, no one expects the quadruple setup stall. Funny calcs below.

252 Atk Life Orb Mewtwo-Mega-X High Jump Kick vs. +3 252 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 588-694 (82.3 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Blissey Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Garchomp-Mega: 169-200 (40.2 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Blissey Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 253-298 (52.2 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Blissey Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252- SpD Mewtwo-Mega-X: 363-426 (87.2 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

+3 252+ Def Audino-Mega Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kartana: 306-362 (95 - 112.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+3 252+ Def Audino-Mega Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-Black: 370-436 (81.4 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Def Audino-Mega Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Diancie-Mega: 277-327 (91.1 - 107.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Def Audino-Mega Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Steelix-Mega: 316-374 (89.2 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
+6 252+ Def Audino-Mega Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyogre-Primal: 317-373 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+3 252 Def Miraidon Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Steelix-Mega: 154-182 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO
+3 252 Def Miraidon Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Diancie-Mega: 135-159 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
+6 252 Def Miraidon Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Kyurem-Black: 458-540 (100.8 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252 Def Miraidon Body Press vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Audino-Mega: 195-230 (47.5 - 56%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

Memes
LiveGiratinaReaction.jpg

LiveGiraReaction2.jpg
 
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Min speed impostor chansey With only self destruct is also p strong as it forces An opponent imposter to switch out. Still, whirlwind or haze impostor chansey are more meta (I guess?) So i don't sAY it's the ultimate set.
Hey there’s also a funny way to force out opposing imp.
Sample submission btw.
team name:
Nice argument senator
team synopsis:
sapblock mirai kartchomp ft. Double move blissey
pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/eb904f8ad353e97f
Poke and role:
:miraidon:
Sap blocker, Kartana improof, spikes setter.
:kartana:
Nothing special it’s just a kart.
:Garchomp-mega:
Very good Pokémon no bias.
:arceus-fairy:
Improofs m chomp, general phys wall and tidy user.
:ho-oh:
Slow pivot and snr ghost check, very good ice scales. Wins vs non rock move diancie.
:chansey:
Funny, imposter is imposter
team weakness
:palkia-origin:
This mf runs through your ice scales very well.
:eternatus:
Having no regenvest makes moldy Etern a struggle to beat
:diancie-mega:
Wins vs mixed no axe but ho oh gets deleted by axe and neither walla can handle boomburst.
team effectiveness:
Won like 4 times into the 1300s. (Only played this a few times)
alternative options
Mold breaker chomp can work with magic bounce :yveltal: or :celesteela: instead, although the paired fc would prob be arc poison instead.
More traditional bouncers I.e :audino-mega: and magic bounce :ho-oh: can be used instead. (Ho oh is also a decent improof for kart)
Why of course, miraidon can use its billions of options in the last two slots beyond t cage and sap like wisp, glare, take heart, torch song/magma storm/lava plume, judgment, leech seed etc.
Similarly arc fairy can use its take heart judg/rev dance set to not be weak to norm fuck why did I forget that.
 
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Tea Guzzler

forever searching for a 10p freddo
is a Site Content Manageris a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
Moderator
hi, tiering action is unlikely until dlc2 thanks to both how close it is and om championship but wanted to drop my thoughts on current banlist-related stuff

:manaphy: Take Heart
TH wincons are just really inconvenient to stop. haze being the only really good anti-setup option is a contributor here, as unaware still relies on a neutral matchup to actually beat the booster (given the tcage chip most of these are inflicting), heart swap means you're still ultimately giving up boosts (meaning it essentially devolves into a game of who crits first), and phazing doesn't really work on regenvest since both arc-ghost and arc-fairy are feasible options (meaning regenvests have to basically pick which one to be unable to phaze). status obviously doesn't work, and short of haze + infestation, salt cure is about the only passive damage you can inflict to slow them down, which recover sets can always shake off. it doesn't help that th stuff can be both fur coat and ice scales without any major indication besides which types tend to be which ability more often, so you can't easily just slap on something like cb mbee and force them out after a slow u-turn. actually picking a consistent mon to answer it is also inconvenient thanks to all of ground (arc-psn judge), fairy, ghost, other ground (arc-ground revdance), and even dragon (mirai) in addition to tcage's raw damage and chip. can see this as suspect-worthy, but with topsy looming (malamar was in a trailer) a quickban now doesn't make much sense.

:diancie-mega: Mega Diancie
has very few consistent answers that don't fold to one set or another. fairy resist is mandatory but fire-types get cooked by either rock coverage option, the only functional poison-type on offer is arc-psn (unless you want to run physdef fezandipiti or some whack), and steels pretty much require an ability to shake off v-create (so fire immunity or fur coat basically), essentially leaving you with fur coat arc-psn and fire-immune registeel as "consistent", semi-slappable answers; it also doesn't help that specs 2hkoes arc-psn with revdance and +spd registeel needs to be basically intact to live 2 boombursts with rocks. soundproof is the other answer, but none are honestly that great, since both ground and good physical bulk is required to actually live espeed / revdance / v-create and not just get volted on forever, essentially leaving groudon and mpert as responses, neither of which are particularly good without twaves/tarrows. changes in dlc2 are unlikely, but we can't know with certainty beforehand.

:garganacl: Salt Cure
generic strong utility move that basically anything can slap on in order to punish pivoting, annoy/slow down (but rarely completely stop) boosting threats, and for some reason out-DPS ho-oh. the ease at which this can be spammed would likely be its main reason for a ban, as steels seldom run cloak apart from registeel, and teams without a magic guard mon (which, given the recent uptick in sheer force mmx, is quite a lot) sort of just have to suffer long-term without any major other option.

:rhydon: Substitute
more of a personal take but i think this is due for a retest we just haven't got around to yet. zamac being gone is the biggest catalyst since the potential new abusers are unclear and only theorymons at best. i wasn't a fan of the soundproof point for a sub ban over gold ban to begin with. this likely isn't a priority, so there's decent odds it gets swept under the carpet for a while, but i think it should eventually get another shot.

(note that nothing in DLC is really confirmed yet; the assumptions that all the legendaries, and therefore their signatures, are back isn't confirmed but is almost guaranteed, and malamar was seen in a trailer so topsy-turvy should be coming back bar some major fuckery)
:necrozma: Photon Geyser - there's just too many psychics with stupid attacking stats for this to really stay here. coverage options are also at the best they've ever been for picking off annoying mons like mega sableye and mega slowbro that would otherwise slow down geyser.

:kartana: Kartana
i think that kart is likely broken with sunsteel, but just at a glance the other steels won't break it enough to where the move becomes banworthy. 2hkoing miraidon is the most notable jump in power, as is not being put on cooldown when attacking into fur coat arc and yveltal, and none of these can really afford ability shield to beat the moldy effect; ftrick + v-c + ground coverage or flip turn also eliminates basically every other steel answer. the other steels with high attack, especially given geyser's likelihood of being banned, don't tend to have very good secondary stabs and also have nowhere near kartana's attack, which is why i don't think sunsteel would break them.
 

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